WWRC A123 Thread

Discussion in 'Sponsor Display' started by WrongWay, Nov 24, 2011.

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  1. Nov 24, 2011 #1

    WrongWay

    WrongWay

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    Well as a vendor here on TFC I never thought of having a thread where I can show my A123 products, new ideas, have discussions on the batteries.... anything for WWRC A123 equipment.

    There are many different combination of battery setups in my shopping cart here.

    Wrong Way RC - KavaRootUSA and WrongWayRc

    All battery orders are custom built and vigorously tested before they go out the door. I would not send a pack that I would not fly myself in one of my favorite planes.

    As a back-ground.... we got in to the A123 and RC hobby soon after it started (I am always curious and played with them right after Dick Hanson started posting his results)... I have now been manufacturing the packs since about 2008... The WWRC quality is there, the batteries are great.

    We also highly recommend the Cellpro brand of chargers. I have seen many chargers work on A123 and most of them are just great, but the Cellpro brand really is close to the top of the line, so I got on with them as a dealer and stock a variety of their chargers.

    Thanks for stopping in... there should be some interesting stuff in this thread as time goes on.

    WrongWayRc
     
  2. Nov 24, 2011 #2

    WrongWay

    WrongWay

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    Here is a starter.

    A little informational vid on different applications for A123. I use these field packs now for many months... beats the heck out of lugging the big car battery around the flight line.

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go1Fq9CdKS0]WrongWayRc New A123 Battery ideas - YouTube[/ame]
     
  3. Nov 24, 2011 #3

    GravyGoodness

    GravyGoodness

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    Great! I have very much considered switching over to A123 batteries just because of all the good things I've heard about them, mainly yours. Of course it seems like everybody I know uses yours, but guys on here are who I keep in contact with.

    I have really enjoyed using Li-Ion/Li-Po technology with all the HV servos I'm running. I like the speed and the power available on 7.4v. Since I have so much invested in the servos, I'd hate to lose the performance with a lower voltage pack. I know a fully charged 7.4v pack is actually 8.4, so what is the "real" fully charged voltage of the A123 batteries?

    I am also under the impression that I need an A123 specific charger, I can't use the Li-Po setting on my Triton? Really, that may seem stupid, but I can charge my Li-Ions on the Li-Po setting with no issues.

    Are they any more/less sensitive to vibration or heat than other Lixx battery formulations? I know cold is not an issue with them

    I know it's a bunch of questions, but I have really weighed the options or re-equipping my fleet and I'm pleased to have a place to get information.

    Thanks

    EDIT:

    With Li-Po batteries, at the end of the day I dis/recharge to get 60% of capacity for storage. Is this required on A123?
     
  4. Nov 24, 2011 #4

    Flatspinjim

    Flatspinjim

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    I've bought A123 batteries and Cell Pro chargers from Richard and I have to say the prices and service are top notch!!
     
  5. Nov 24, 2011 #5

    WrongWay

    WrongWay

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    ""o what is the "real" fully charged voltage of the A123 batteries?""

    They top off at 7.2v. Once resting they will come down to just over 7. Now once you draw some juice they very quickly go down to 6.6v and stay there for somewhere close to 80% of their capacity

    ""I need an A123 specific charger, I can't use the Li-Po setting on my
    Triton? ""

    I dont have a Triton but depending on the model I am told that you can modify the termination voltage setting and it works the same on liion charge. A123 is a type of lithium battery, just different chemistry. FWIW, I have had Triton customers at the field who see the Cellpro charger in action and you will never guess what happened? I have the factory refurbs (not much longer) that are in the mid $30 range that is world class for A123 and lipo.


    ""Are they any more/less sensitive to vibration or heat than other Lixx battery formulations? I know cold is not an issue with them""

    Consider that the battery was initially designed to be used in power tools. I dont know about you, but when I worked construction years ago.... guys were dropping their power tools off of roofs... Further, these cells were designed to be used at 10c in these power tools. High discharge rate, high recharge rate. In our model airplanes it is rare that we are using them much above 1C and when that happens, it might be momentary in a maneuver.

    Having said all of that above, it you clamp down any battery on your engine box with no vibration dampening material, you will be taking your chances with failure rates above normal. When we build the packs we use the highest quality solder, and build the wiring with strain relief so that vibration issues are at the minimum. Very good success with it to date.

    R


     
  6. Nov 24, 2011 #6

    WrongWay

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    Forgot to answer your edit question. At the end of the day I usually top off my batteries as I am dismantling the plane and wiping it down. The packs can be left fully charged, I have come back weeks... sometimes months later and found that when I tried to top them off they may take 10 to 15 mAh.

    Here is the data sheet for the 2300 cells. Notice the operating temp goes from -30c to +60c, in F temp that is -22 to 140. At the bottom of the operating range, like any battery the capacity will be reduced somewhat.
     

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  7. Nov 24, 2011 #7

    WrongWay

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    This vid has always been a favorite. Back in 06 and 07 this drag bike was setup with the A123-2300 cells. In one of the vid articles they actually mention that they warm the packs up to 140 degrees so they give off better energy when demanded.
     
  8. Nov 24, 2011 #8

    yakken

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    So is there going to be a black Friday sale. :D
     
  9. Nov 24, 2011 #9

    WrongWay

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    Actually yes... we are Black Friday 365...
     
  10. Nov 24, 2011 #10

    yakken

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    I hear ya bro, I am goin to be in the market for some more a123 batts. I will check you guys out. :thumbsup:
     
  11. Nov 24, 2011 #11

    MeanGene

    MeanGene

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    way to go richard. i can hardly wait to try them out.
     
  12. Dec 4, 2011 #12

    WrongWay

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    Something new that will be added to the site this week. Material has just been stocked.

    Background first.

    At the home field we have a 15 foot hill to climb and I got tired of lugging my lead acid battery up and back to the flight line.

    First I made 4S1P A123-1100 that was taped to my sullivan starter. It would last all day starting 20 and 30cc engines. (why does he not start them by hand you say.....I use the starter cause I CAN!!) This size will only work on the 30cc if the choke is off does well for 20cc gasser and all the glow.

    Next I made a 4S1P A123-2300. This pack has deans plug and short lead with 4mm Female bullets that I can plug my starter in to. On the sullivan dynatron it has spun up 50cc that were flooded.....works all day on a glow starter....but then one day it hit me.... those 4mm bullets are waiting for me to plug in my cellpro 4S charger... So I started using this 2300 for starting and charging the small planes with A123...I liked it so much that I made a dedicated 4S1P-2300 just for the charger. At 2300 mah it is somewhat limited in how much activity you can use it each day before needing recharge.... The good part is if I ran it out it could go back to the trailer and get recharged a 4 amps in just over a half hour... or put it on the big charger at 10 amps and be done in 15 minutes...

    So the 4S1P 2300 would recharge after each flight and go all day on 20cc, and or 30cc.... for the 50cc it would last to early afternoon on a day with more than 5 flights... This is still a good setup to have in my trailer..

    Next in the effort is the A123 4S1P-4400. I got a couple of these cells from A123. These were designed to be used in the Chevy Volt. Each cell is capable of 128 amps continuous....something we will never need... I still have the pro type pack in my trailer, it is great....I put it on 12ga with an EC3 Connector...I can do Genuine Deans Ultra, EC3 or XT-60. These cells are awesome but as a commercial release I have found that they would primarily be too expensive to offer.. Additionally these cells are made for 128 continuous and as such, the positive block on the battery also doubles as a large aluminum heat sink. This requires mechanical connection or a laser welder to attach tabs or wires... again, gonna be too expensive...

    Which leads to my next post.....
     

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  13. Dec 4, 2011 #13

    WrongWay

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    So I shopped outside of A123's Nano Tech sizes... I wanted something for a field pack that could run my charger on the flight line longer
    than the 2300 did... more capacity for a one charge day...

    After much research and consideration I settled on the LIFE 3300.

    I put them to testing...They wont give 70 amps continuous like the A123 but rather rated at 10 amps pulse discharge and just under
    7 amps continuous. (this is the same chemistry as the A123 but does not have the nano material in the nodes)

    I loaded the 4S1P-3300 up on the Cellpro Powerlab 8 and asked for 15 amps discharge, it would only give 7.62 continuous. At 1650mah out
    I stopped the charger and went to monitor mode... voltage depression was measured at .516v, so not too bad....when running at 100% abilility
    it would still hold voltage to run a 12v system. The packs were working hard as an IR measure showed 120 degrees F.... something to be said for
    A123's nano stuff as the same test at the same discharge produced a 99 degree pack (shop temp 70 deg)

    Next I did the same test at 4 amp load.. This time the pack was much cooler producing 105v after taking out half of the capacity. This is more of
    a real world application as most folks charge their A123's closer to the manufacturer's normal charge rate of 3 amps.

    Upon cycling the pack down to 2.5v per cell (10v) the pack was recharged and found to be closer to 3500 mah in capacity. These packs are
    supposed to be 3300 nominal with spec up to 3400 so they were good there.

    About LIFE packs. I noticed that they charge at the same rate as A123's up to about 90% capacity, they taper off and can take an extra
    few minutes to complete that last 10% as compared to A123. The A123's with the Nano Tech will hold input amperage right up to 99% and
    then go into trickle balance mode and shut off rather quickly. So LIFE take a little longer at the top.

    Another comparison, internal cell impedance for the Life in this configuration measured at 14 to 15 milliohms. The A123 in same configuration
    was 7-8.

    The spec sheet that came with these packs shows that Cycle life should be just over 2000 cycles. This is measured by taking the pack all the
    way down to 2v per cell, resting 30minutes and charging, then doing it again... At just over 2000 cycles the pack still had 87% of their original
    capacity.

    The WW recommended max discharge rate will be 6 amps for the pack and max charge rate at 4 amps. This should easily give the customer that
    2000 cycle life, more than likely it will be much more.

    Finally, a 13.2v field pack that can fit in your pocket, charge it and it stays charged.... no lead acid....it works for me.
     

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  14. Dec 4, 2011 #14

    WrongWay

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    This is the pack with the 4mm bullet attachment to run the charger.
     

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  15. Dec 4, 2011 #15

    WrongWay

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    forgot to mention, the balance tap on there now is for Cellpro.

    I can also do JST-XH balance tap to fit other brand chargers. I will be adding these to the site tomorrow, right now going flying...
     
  16. Dec 4, 2011 #16

    Pakratt76

    Pakratt76

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    Cool! Definately watchin' this! Yeah :thumbs:

    Tired of carrying my 12v lead acid lawn mower battery around too....
    besides, it's on the end of it's 3rd season... I can tell it's lost capacity....
    bet I don't get a 4th out of it...

    (If I don't buy a new Lead battery, this is allready like a $30 coupon
    towards the purchase of a LiFeP04 WW-charger battery setup) -- LOL
     
  17. Dec 4, 2011 #17

    RAVEN04

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    Me to:lurk:
     
  18. Dec 4, 2011 #18

    WrongWay

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    So I went out today and flew my 60cc profile with one A123 battery, each time I came down from a 10, 12 and 13 minute flight I ran the A123 - 2300
    on the cellpro charger to refil the battery (one A123 runs flight and ignition at the same time...dedicated power leads-flawless for two years now)...
    I find it easier to just plug it in to the fuse port (wing in my case) charge jack and while yakking with the gang I am getting full again... never an
    issue with how many flights etc etc...I had a little over an hour of air time and the plane went back in the trailer full... ready for the next outing..the
    A123-4S1P - 2300 took 1985mah so it had one more flight in it before I had to go back to the trailer....


    The nicest thing is I was able to walk up that 15 foot hill with my assembled plane, 2.5 gallon fuel tank, transmitter in hands... cellpro charger and A123 13v
    in my pockets... plus the WrongWay Cam.... one trip.... pure laziness...:willynilly:


    The 3300 will give me all day, many flights on a 50cc...

    For my 40% I will run two of these 3300's for 13v systems, and two cellpro 4S Factory refurbs (next shipment due this week) so that when I fly
    the 150cc, after a flight...I hook one of the cellpro 4S to one fuse mount balance port, the second 4s and charger to the other fuse port...
    charging both batteries at the same time without the need for removing the canopy... (no common ground issues when using two power supplies)

    I will likely do the same thing, fly a flight... plug them in... by the time I can re fuel, yak with the guys I will be full again.... I hate waiting on a charger
    ..... the days of overnight NIMH or NICAD or LIION are gone for me....

    .... and I got a smart phone too!!!
     
  19. Dec 5, 2011 #19

    Pakratt76

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    Excellent report Rich!

    I was sitting here and a thought went through my mind....
    A relative max safe cut-off for these cells would be 2v per cell, correct?

    Now, using the 14.4v / 13.2v nominal pack for a field charger....
    such as a Cellpro 4s, for example....
    they run from 10v-16v on average..... there's really no danger
    of hurting the field charger supply LiFePO4 pack since the
    charger errors out at 10v..... so this would mean if I have an
    excellent day flying, and I'm flying like we all love to do, and
    charging the planes' onboard RX A123 6.6v batteries like a crazy man...
    the charger cuts out when the supply cells are around 2.5v per cell..
    in other words 10v on the 13.2v charger supply pack...
    perfectly acceptable, from what I understand...

    Granted, this would be a lot of airtime in one day, but not impossible.... :biggrin:

    Is my understanding within reason?

    Hopefully I'm right on, and this will answer others' same thoughts as well.. :thumbsup:
     
  20. Dec 5, 2011 #20

    RAVEN04

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    Morning everyone....
     

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